Heated Exchange During Testimony About White House Visits (VIDEO)

Rep. Jim Jordan (R-OH) presses former IRS Commissioner Douglas Shulman over meetings Shulman attended at the White House during the time that political targeting was said to be taking place in a grueling question and answer session, yesterday – May 22, 2013.

You can watch the heated exchange below followed by the transcript.

TRANSCRIPT:

REP. JORDAN: Mr. Shulman you testified yesterday and today and you said last spring that you had a partial set of facts that you did not have the full story that you did not fully understand what took place until your read the Inspector General’s report. It that accurate?

COM. SHULMAN: That sounds accurate.

REP. JORDAN: Alright. In the 2 years that this targeting was taking place, did any member of Congress contact you, write you about this particular subject?

COM. SHULMAN: Um.

REP. JORDAN: Did you get any letters from Congress?

COM. SHULMAN: Yes.

REP. JORDAN: Alright. Do you know how many?

COM. SHULMAN: I do not.

REP. JORDAN: We got some information from you all yesterday. It lists correspondence regarding 501C(4)s and we counted them up. 132 different members of Congress contacted you over the appropriate time period. Did you read any of those letters?

COM. SHULMAN: The letters that I remember about this set of facts around –

REP. JORDAN: Did you read any of them? I’m just –

COM. SHULMAN: – started coming in in February of 2012.

REP. JORDAN: Well, this is from the IRS. We got 132 member of Congress contacted you about 501C(4) status. Um, you ever read any newspaper articles about this issue in the time period that [sic] in question, Mr. Shulman?

COM. SHULMAN: To the best of my knowledge – yes.

REP. JORDAN: Do you know how many news stories – would you hazard a guess – took place during the time period we’re focused on?

COM. SHULMAN: I wouldn’t guess.

REP. JORDAN: Do you have – our staff in our office has – like we have a Google alert. If my name comes up they find out what the press is saying about me and they let me know. Do [sic] you have that while you were at the IRS? Did you have, like, a Google alert when stories about the IRS or Doug Shulman come up? Did they let you know about those stories?

COM. SHULMAN: The IRS has a – uh – press clippings that I saw on a regular basis when I –

REP. JORDAN: Would you hazard a guess about how many major news stories took place in this time period about this question when the targeting was going on?

COM. SHULMAN: No.

REP. JORDAN: 42. We just did a quick search. 42 major news stories. So here is what everyone wants to know – You got 132 members of the United States Congress contacting you about this issue, 42 major news stories about this issue in the time period in question – and you never checked it out. You never researched it. I mean – are you sure you’re being square with us today Mr. Shulman?

COM. SHULMAN: I’m absolutely telling you the truth today.

REP. JORDAN: Absolutely? Well that’s interesting because Mr. Lynch (Rep. Stephen F. Lynch D-Mass) just cited your testimony from a year ago and you used similar language.

When in front of the Ways and Means Committee:

WAYS AND MEANS: “Can you give assurances that the IRS is not targeting particular groups.

SHULMAN: Thanks for bringing this up because I think there has been a lot of press about this [there was – we found out] and a lot of moving information, so I appreciate the opportunity to clarify. First let me start by saying yes, I can give you assurances

I don’t think you can say it any stronger.

SHULMAN: We pride ourselves on being a non-political non-partisan organization.

And that’s why people are wondering if you are being square with us today because you said you could assure everyone – the American people and Congress then that nothing was going on and the gentleman sitting beside you [referring to J Russell George, the non-partisan Treasury Inspector General] just issued a report last week that says what you told the Congress – what you told the American people – a year ago is absolutely wrong.

And you’re sure you’re being square with us?

COM. SHULMAN: Excuse me? [flustered, angry or confused look]

REP. JORDAN: Did you ever talk to anyone at the White House about this issue?

COM. SHULMAN: Um – about this issue? Not that I remember.

REP. JORDAN: You ever go to the White House?

COM. SHULMAN: Yes, I had a number of occasions to go to the White House.

REP. JORDAN: How many times [sic] you go to the White House?

COM. SHULMAN: Um, many times around budget and policy matters of tax and other things like that.

REP. JORDAN: Do you have a number? Any idea?

COM. SHULMAN: I don’t have a number.

REP. JORDAN: We just looked at the White House log. Now we couldn’t get 2012, but in 2010 and 2011 – 118 times you were at the White House. I mean that’s a lot. I bet these Democrat members of Congress for this administration have not been there close to this many number of times.

A hundred and eighteen times you were at the White House; 132 members of Congress contact you about this information; 42 major news stories about this very subject – and you told Congress a year ago “I can give you assurances nothing is going on. Everything’s wonderful. We’re not targeting conservative groups.”

I mean – that’s why the American people – they are like – “this is unbelievable.”

Are you sure you didn’t talk to anyone at the White House about this issue Mr. Shulman?

COM. SHULMAN: About singling out conservative groups – uh – for special scrutiny?

REP. JORDAN: Well that’s what we’re talking about isn’t it?

COM. SHULMAN: Absolutely sure I did not talk to anyone –

REP. JORDAN: 118 visits – it did not come up in a casual conversation after 132 members of Congress contacted you about it – are you sure you did not bring it up to anyone at the White House?

COM. SHULMAN: Not to my memory and it wouldn’t appropriate and so I certainly believe I did not have any conversations.

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