Here is the full video from last night’s Vice Presidential Debate along with the full transcript.

VP DEBATE FULL VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT

MARTHA RADDATZ:  Good evening, and welcome to the first and only vice presidential debate of 2012,  sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates.  I’m Martha Raddatz of ABC News and I am honored to moderate this debate between two men to have dedicated much of their lives to public service.

Tonight’s debate is divided between domestic and foreign policy issues, and I’m going to move back and forth between foreign and domestic since that is what a vice president or  president would have to do.  We will have nine different segments, at the beginning of each segment, I will ask both candidates a question, and they will each have two minutes to answer. Then I will encourage a discussion between the candidates with follow-up questions.

By coin toss, it has been determined that vice president Biden will be first to answer the opening question.  We have a wonderful audience here at Centre College tonight.  You will no doubt hear their enthusiasm at the end of the debate, and right now, as we welcome Vice President Joe Biden and Congressman Paul Ryan.

[Applause]

RADDATZ:  Very nice to see you.

BIDEN:  How are you doing?

RADDATZ:  Okay.  You’ve got your little wave to the families in, that’s great.  Good evening, gentlemen, it really is a honor to be here with both of you.  I would like to begin  with Libya.  On a rather somber note, one month ago tonight, on the anniversary of 9/11, Ambassador Chris Stevens and three other brave Americans were killed in a terrorist attack in Benghazi.  The State Department has now made clear there were no protesters there.  It was a pre-planned assault by heavily armed men.  Wasn’t this a massive intelligence failure, Vice President Biden?

BIDEN:  What it was, was a tragedy, Martha.  Chris Stevens was one of our best, we lost three other brave Americans and I can make absolutely two commitments to you and all the American people tonight.  One, we will find and bring to justice the men who did this.  And secondly, we will get to the bottom of it and whatever — wherever the facts lead us, wherever they lead us, we will make clear to the American public, because whatever mistakes were made will not be made again.

When you’re looking at a president, Martha, it seems to me that you should take a look at his most important responsibility, that’s caring for the national security of the country and the best way to do that is to take a look at how he’s handled the issues of the day.  On Iraq, the president said he would end the war.  Governor Romney said that was a  tragic mistake, we should have left — he ended it, Governor Romney said that was a tragic mistake, we should have left 30,000 troops there.

With regard to Afghanistan, he said he will end the war in 2014, Governor Romney said we should not set a date, number one, and number two, with regard to 2014, it depends.  When it came to Osama Bin Laden, the President, the first day in the office, I was sitting with him in the Oval Office, he called in the CIA and signed an order saying my highest priority is to get Bin Laden.  Prior to the election, prior to him being sworn in, Governor Romney was asked a question about how he would proceed.  He said “I wouldn’t move heaven and earth to get Bin Laden.” He didn’t understand it was more than about taking a murderer off the battlefield.  It was about restoring America’s heart and letting terrorists around the world know, if you do harm to America, we will track you to the gates of hell if need be.

And lastly, the President of the United States has led with a steady hand and clear vision.  Governor Romney, the opposite.  The last thing we need now is another war.

RADDATZ: Congressman Ryan.

RYAN:  We mourn the loss of the four Americans who were murdered. When you take a look at what has happened just in the last few weeks, they sent the U.N Ambassador out to say that was because of a protest and a YouTube video.  It took the president two weeks to acknowledge that this was a terrorist attack.  He went to the UN and in a speech at the U.N, he said 6 times, he talked about the YouTube video.  Look, if we are hit by terrorist, we are going to call it for what it is, a terrorist attack. Our ambassador in Paris has a Marine detachment guarding him. Shouldn’t we have a Marine detachment guarding our ambassador in Benghazi, a place where we knew there was an Al Qaeda cell with arms.  This is becoming more troubling by the day.  They first blamed the YouTube video, now they’re trying to blame the Romney-Ryan ticket for making this an issue. With respect to Iraq, we had the same position before the withdrawal which was we agreed with the Obama administration, let’s have a status of forces agreement to make sure that we secure our gains, the Vice President was put in charge of those negotiations by President Obama and they failed to get the agreement.  We don’t have a status of forces agreement because they failed to get one. That’s what we are talking about.  And when it comes to our veterans, we owe them a great debt of gratitude for what they’ve done for us, including your son, Beau.

BIDEN:  Thank you.

RYAN:  But we also want to make sure that we don’t lose the things we fought so hard to get.  And with respect to Afghanistan, the 2014 deadline, way agree with the 2014 transition but what we also want to do is make sure we’re not projecting weakness abroad.  And that’s what is happening here.  This Benghazi issue would be a tragedy in and of itself but unfortunately it’s indicative of a broader problem and that is what we are watching on our TV screens is the unraveling of the Obama foreign policy which is making the world more chaotic and us less safe.

MODERATOR:  I just want to talk to you about right in the middle of the all crisis, Governor Romney and you’re talking about this again tonight, talked about the weakness, talked about apologies from the Obama administration.  Was that really appropriate right in the middle of the crisis?

RYAN:  On that same day, the Obama administration had the exact same position.  Let’s recall that they disavowed their own statement that they had put out earlier in the day in Cairo, so we had the same position but we will — it’s never too early to speak out for our values.  We should have spoken out right away when the green revolution was up and starting when the Mullah in Iran were attacking this people.  We should not have called Bashar al-Assad a reformer, when he was turning his Russian provided guns on his own people.  We should always stand up for peace, democracy, for individual rights.  And we should not be imposing these devastating defense cuts because what that does when we equivocate on our values, when we show that we’re —

BIDEN:  Can I say anything here?

RYAN:  It makes us more week, it projects weakness and when we look weak, our enemies are much more likely to attack us, they’re more brazen in their attack and our allies are less likely to protect us.

BIDEN:  With all drew respect that’s a bunch of malarkey,.

MODERATOR: And why is that so?

BIDEN: Because not a single thing he said is accurate.  I will be very specific. Number one, this lecture on embassy security, the congressman here cut embassy security in his budget by $300 million below what we asked for number one, so much for the embassy security piece.  Number two, Governor Romney, before he knew the facts, before he even knew that our ambassador was killed, he was out making a political statement which was panned by the media around the world. And this talk about this weakness, I  don’t understand what my friend’s talking about here.  We — this is a president whose gone out and done everything he has said he was going to do.  This is a guy whose repaired our alliances so the rest of the world follows us again. This is the guy who brought the entire world including you go Russia and China to bring about the most devastating, most devastating — the most devastating efforts on Iran to make sure that they, in fact, stop — look, I just — I mean, this guy’s bet against America all the time.

GUEST SPEAKER:  Let me go back to Libya.

BIDEN:  Yeah, sure.

MODERATOR:  What were you first told about the attack?  Why were people talking about protests when people in the consulate first saw armed men attacking with guns, there were no protesters, why did that go on for week.

RYAN:  Because that’s exactly what away were told by the intelligence community.

MODERATOR:  By who?

BIDEN:  The intelligence community told uses that as they learned more facts about exactly what happened, they changed their assessment.  That’s why there’s also an investigation headed by Tom Pickering, a leading Democrat from the Reagan years, who is doing an investigation as to whether or not there are any lapse, what the lapses were, so they will never happen again.

MODERATOR:  And they wanted more security there.

BIDEN:  We weren’t told they’ wanted more security.  We did not know they wanted more security again and by the way, at the time, we were told exactly — we said exactly what the intelligence community told us, that they knew.  That was the assessment.  And as the  intelligence community changed their view, we made it clear they changed their view. That’s why I said we will get to the bottom of this.  You know, usually when there’s a crisis we pull together.  We pull together as a nation.  But as I said, even before we knew what happened in the ambassador the governor was holding a press conference, was holding a press conference, that’s not presidential leadership.’

MODERATOR:  Mr. Ryan, I want to ask you about the Romney campaign talks a lot about no apologies, should the U.S. have apologized for Americans burning Korans in Afghanistan and apologized for U.S. marines urinating on Taliban Corpses.

RYAN:  Oh, gosh, yes.  Urinating on Taliban Corpses — What we should not be apologizing for are standing up for our values. What we should not be doing is saying the Egyptian people, while Mubarak is cracking down on them that he’s a good guy, and then the next week say he ought to go. What we should not be doing is rejecting claims for calls for more security in barracks and our Marines, we need Marines in Benghazi when the commander on the ground says we need more forces for security.  There were requests for extra security, those requests were not honored.  Look this, was the anniversary of 9/11, it was Libya, a country we knew we had Al Qaeda today cells there, as we know Al Qaeda and its affiliates are  on the rise in northern Africa and we did not give our ambassador in Benghazi a Marine detachment.  Of course, there’s an investigation so we can make sure that this never happens again.  But when it comes to speaking up for our values, we should not apologize for those. Here’s the problem.  Look at all of various issues out there and it’s unraveling before our eyes.  The vice president talks about sanctions on Iran, we’ve got —

RADDATZ:  Let’s move to Iran.  I’d actually like to move to Iran, because there’s really no bigger national security this country is facing, both President Obama and Governor Romney have said they will prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon, even if that means military action. Last week, Bob dates said a strike on Iran’s facilities would not work and “could prove catastrophic haunting us for generations”. Can the two of you be absolutely clear and specific to the American people how effective would a military strike be? Congressman Ryan.

RYAN: We cannot allow Iran to gain a nuclear weapons capability. Now, let’s take a look at where the we’ve come from.  When Barack Obama was elected they had enough nuclear, fissile, material to make one bomb, now central enough for five. They’re racing towards a nuclear weapon, they’re four years closer to a nuclear weapons compatibility.  We’ve had four different sanctions with the UN on Iran, three from the Bush administration, one here, and the only reason we got it is because Russia watered it down and prevented the sanctions from hitting the central bank. Mitt Romney proposed these sanctions in 2007 and in Congress I’ve been fighting for these sanctions in 2009.  The administration was blocking us every step of the way, only because we had strong bipartisan support for these tough sanctions were we believe to overrule their objections and put them in spite of the administration.

RADDATZ: Vice President Biden.

RADDATZ: That’s in.

BIDEN: Imagine, had we let a Republican Congress work out the sanctions. Do you think there’s any possibility the entire world would have joined us, Russia and China, all of our allies, these are the most crippling sanctions in the history of sanctions, period. When Governor Romney’s asked about it, he says we’ve got to keep these sanctions, when he said you’re talking about doing more, you’re going to go to war? Is that what you want to do now?

RYAN:  We want to prevent war.

BIDEN:  How are they going to prevent war, they say there’s nothing more that they say we should do than what we’ve already done. Number one, and number two, with regard to the ability of the United States to take action militarily, it’s not in my purview to talk about classified information but we feel quite confident we could deal a serious blow to the Iranians, but number two, the Iranians are the — Israelis and the United States are military and intelligence communities are absolutely the same exact place, in terms of how close the Iranians are to getting a nuclear weapon. They are a good way away. There is no difference between our view and theirs. When my friend talks about fissile material, they have to take this highly enriched uranium, get it from 20% up, then they have to be able to have something to put it in, there is no weapon that the Iranians have at this point.  Both the Israelis and we know we’ll know if they start the process of building a weapon. So all this bluster, I keep hearing, all this loose talk, what are they talking about? Are you talking about to be more credible, what more can the president do, stand before the United Nations tell the whole world, directly communicate to the Ayatollah, we will not let them acquire a nuclear weapon, period, unless he’s talking about going to war.

RYAN:  Martha, let’s just —

MODERATOR:  Correct me if I’m wrong man Ryan.

RYAN:  Let’s look at that from the view of the Ayatollahs, what do they see, they see this administration trying to water down sanctions in Congress for over two years. They’re moving faster towards a nuclear weapon, they’re spinning the center fuses faster, they see us saying when we come into the administration, when they’re sworn in, we need more space with our alley Israel, they see President Obama in New York City the same day BB Netanyahu is and he’s instead of meeting with him goes on a daily talk show, they see when we say that these options are on the table, the secretary of defense walked them back.  They are not changing their mind.  That’s what we have to do is change their mind so they stop pursuing nuclear weapons and they’re going faster.

MODERATOR:  How do you do it so quickly?  Look, you both saw Benjamin Netanyahu hold up that picture of a bomb with a red line and talking about the red line being in spring. So can you solve this if — if the Romney, Ryan ticket is elected, can you solve this in two months before spring and avoid nuclear, – a threat of nuclear.

RYAN:  We can debate the time line whether it’s that sort of time or longer I agree that it’s probably longer.  Number two, it’s all about credibility.

MODERATOR:  You don’t agree with that bomb and what the Israelis would do.

RYAN:  I don’t want to go into classified stuff but we both agree that to do this peacefully you’ve got to get them to change their minds; they’re not changing their minds and look at what this administration does.

MODERATOR:  What do you do differently?

BIDEN: Let me tell you what the Ayatollah sees, the Ayatollah sees his economy being crippled, the Ayatollah sees that there are 50% fewer exports of oil, he sees the currency going into the tank, he sees the economy going into free fall and he sees the world for the first time totally united in opposition to him getting a nuclear weapon.  Now, with regard to BB, he’s been my friend for thirty nine years, the President has met with BB a dozen times. He’s spoken to BB Netanyahu as much as he’s spoken to anybody. The idea that we’re not — I was in a — just before he went to the UN, I was in a conference call with the president — with him talking to BB for well over an hour, and stark relief in detail about what was going on, this is a bunch of stuff. Look, here’s the deal.

MODERATOR: What does that mean a bunch of stuff?

BIDEN:  Well, it means it’s simply inaccurate.

RYAN:  It’s Irish.

BIDEN: Exactly, it is. We Irish call malarkey, but last thing the secretary of defense, has made it absolutely clear, he didn’t walk anything back; we will not allow the Iranians to get a nuclear weapon

BIDEN:  What BB held up there was when they get to the point where they can enrich uranium enough to put into a weapon, they don’t have a weapon to put it into.  Let’s all calm down a little bit here Iran is more isolated today than when we took office.  It was on the ascendancy when we took office. It is totally isolated. I don’t know what world these guys are in.

MODERATOR: Congressman Ryan, Congressman Ryan

RYAN:  Thank heavens we have these sanction in place, it’s in spite of their opposition, they’ve given 20 waivers to this sanction and all I have to point to are the results, they’re four years closer toward a nuclear weapon, I think that case speaks for itself.

MODERATOR:  Can you tell the American people, what’s worse, another war in the Middle East.

BIDEN:  By the way, they’re not four years closer to a nuclear weapon; they’re closer to being able to get enough fiscal material to put in a weapon if they had a weapon.

MODERATOR:  You’re acting a little bit like they don’t want one, though.

BIDEN:  Oh I didn’t say that, no I’m not saying that. Facts matter, Martha, you’re a foreign policy expert, facts matter.  All this loose talk about them all they have to do is get to enrich uranium in a certain amount and they have a weapon, not true, not true.  They are more — and if we ever have to take action, unlike when we took office, we will have the world behind us and that matters.  That matters.

MODERATOR:  What about Bob Gates’ statement?  Let me read that again, could prove catastrophic haunting us for generations.

BIDEN:  He is right; it could prove catastrophic if we didn’t do it with precision.

RYAN:  And what it does is it undermines our credibility by backing up the point when we make it that all options are on the table that’s the point. The Ayatollahs see these kinds of statements and they think I’m going to get a nuclear weapon.  When we see the kind of equivocation that took place because this administration wanted a precondition policy so when the Green Revolution started up, they were silent for 9 days when they see us putting they see us putting daylight between ourselves and our alleys in Israel, that gives them encouragement, when they see Russia watering down any further sanctions, the only reason we got an UN sanction is because Russia watered it down and prevented these sanctions from being sanctions in the first place.  So when they see this kind of activity,  they are encouraged to continue.

BIDEN:  Martha, let me tell you what Russia did.

MODERATOR:  Let me ask you what’s worse, war in the Middle East, another war in the Middle East or a nuclear armed Iran.

RYAN:  I’ll tell you what is worst, a nuclear armed Iran which triggers a nuclear arms race in the middle east, this is the world’s largest sponsor of terrorism, they’ve dedicated themselves to wiping an entire country off the map, they call us the great satin and if they get nuclear weapons, other people in the neighborhood will pursue their nuclear weapons as well, we can’t live with that.

BIDEN:  War should always be the absolute last resort, that’s why these crippling sanctions with BB Netanyahu says we should continue, which if I am not mistaken Governor Romney says we should continue, I may be mistaken, he changes his mind so often, I could be wrong but the fact of the matter is he says they are working and the fact is they are being crippled by them and we’ve made it clear, big nations can’t bluff this president doesn’t bluff.

RADDATZ: Gentlemen, I want to bring the discussion to a different kind of national security issue.  The state of our economy, the number one issue here at home is jobs.  The percentage of unemployed just fell below 8% for the first time in 43 months.  The Obama administration had projected that it would fall below 6% now after the addition of close to a trillion dollars in stimulus money, so will both of you level with the American people, can you get unemployment to under 6% and how long will it take?

BIDEN: I don’t know how long it will take, we can and we will get under 6%. Let’s take a look at the facts.  Let’s look at where we were when we came to office.  The economy was in free fall, we had the great recession hit, 9 million people lost their jobs, 1.7 — $1.6 trillion in wealth lost in equity in your homes and retirement accounts for the middle class, we knew we had to act for the middle class, we immediately went out and rescued General Motors, we went ahead and made sure we cut taxes for the middle class and in addition to that, and when that occurred, what did Romney do? He said no, let Detroit go bankrupt. We moved in and helped people refinance their homes, Governor Romney said no, let foreclosures hit the bottom, but it shouldn’t be surprising for a guy who says 47% of the American people are unwilling to take responsibility for their lives — my friend, recently in a speech in Washington, DC said 30% of the American people are takers. These people are my mom and dad, the people I grew up with, my neighbors. They pay more effective tax than Governor Romney pays on his federal income tax. They are elderly people who are living off Social Security. They are Veterans and people fighting in Afghanistan right now who are quote not paying any taxes I’ve had it up to here with this notion that 47% — it’s about time they take some responsibility here.  And instead of signing pledges to Grover Norquist not to ask the wealthiest among to contribute to bring back the middle class, they should be signing a pledge saying to the middle class, we’re going to level the playing field. We’re going to give you a fair shot again, we are going to not repeat the mistakes we made in the past by having a different set of rules for Wall Street and Main Street, making sure that we continue to hemorrhage these tax cuts for the super wealthy. They’re pushing the continuation of a tax cut that will give an additional $500 billion in tax cuts to 120,000 families and they’re holding hostage the middle class tax cut because they say we won’t pass, we won’t continue the middle class tax cut unless you give the tax cut for the super wealthy. It’s about time they take some responsibility.

RADDATZ:  Mr. Ryan?

RYAN:  Joe and I are from similar backgrounds, he’s from Pennsylvania and I’m from Janesville, Wisconsin. Do you know what the unemployment rate in Scranton is today?

BIDEN: I sure do.

RYAN: It’s 10%. You know what it was the day you guys came in? 8.5%. That’s how it’s going to all around America.

BIDEN: That’s not how it’s going, it’s going down.

RADDATZ:  This is a two minute answer, guys.

RYAN:  Look — did they come in and inherit a tough situation? Absolutely.  But we’re going in the wrong direction.  Look at where we are.  The economy is barely limping along. It’s growing at 1.3%, that’s slower than it grew last year and last year was slower than the year before.  Job growth in September was slower than it was in August, and August was slower than it was in July.  We’re heading in the wrong direction.  23 million Americas are struggling for work today.  15% of Americans are living in poverty today.  This is not what a real recovery looks like, we need real reforms, for a real recovery and that’s exactly what Mitt Romney and I are proposing.  It’s a five point plan. Get America energy dependent in North America by the end of the decade, help people who are hurting get the skills to get the jobs they want, get this deficit and debt under control to prevent a debt crisis, make trade work for America so we can make more things in America and sell them oversees and champion small businesses, don’t raise taxes on small businesses because they’re our job creators. He’s talking about Detroit, Mitt Romney is a car guy.  Let me tell you about the Mitt Romney I know. I was talking to a family in North Borrow, Massachusetts the other day, Cheryl and Nixon. Their kids were hit in a car crash, two of them. Rob and Reed were paralyzed. The Romneys didn’t know them, they went so the same church but they never met before. Mitt asked if he could come over on Christmas, he brought his boys, his wife and gifts, later on he said I know you’re struggling Mark, don’t worry about their college, I’ll pay for it.  When Mark told me this story, because Mitt Romney doesn’t tell me these stories, he said it wasn’t the cash help. It’s that he gave his time, and he has consistently. This is a man who gave 30% of his income to charity, more than the two of us combined. Mitt Romney is a good man, he cares about 100% of Americans in this country, and with respect to that quote, I think the vice president very well knows that sometimes the words don’t come out of your mouth the right way.

[ Laughter ]

BIDEN:  But I always say what I mean.  And so does Romney.

RYAN:  We want everybody to succeed, we want to get people out of poverty in the middle class on life self-sufficiency, we believe in opportunity and upward mobility, and that’s what we’re going to push for in the Romney administration.

RADDATZ:  Vice President, I have a feeling you have a few things to say here.

BIDEN:  The idea if you heard that little soliloquy on the 47%, you think he just made a mistake then I think you’re — I’ve got a bridge to sell you.  Look, I don’t doubt his personal generosity and I understand what it’s like.

When I was a little younger than the Congressman, my wife was in an accident, killed my daughter and my wife, and my two sons survived.  I have sat in the homes of many people that have gone through what I’ve get through because the one thing you can give people solace is to know if they know you’ve been through it that they can make it.  So I don’t doubt his  personal commitment to individuals. But you know what? I know he had no commitment to the automobile industry.  He just let — he said let to it go bankrupt, period.  Let it drop out.

All this talk, we saved a million jobs.  200,000 people are working today, and I’ve never met two guys who are more down on America across the board.  We’re told everything’s going bad. There are 5.2 million new jobs, private sector jobs.  We need more but 5.2 million, but if they would get out of the way, if they’d get out of the way and let us pass the tax cut for the middle class, make it permanent.  If they’d get out of the way and pass the jobs bill.  If they’d get out of the way and let us allow 14 million people who are struggling to stay in their homes because their mortgages are upside down but they never missed a mortgage payment, just get out of the way.  Stop talking about how you care about people.  Show me something.  Show me a policy.  Show me a policy where you take responsibility.

And by the way, they talk about this great recession as if it fell out of the sky like, oh most goodness where did it come from? It came from this man voting to put two wars on the credit card and at the same time to put a prescription drug benefit on the credit card and a trillion dollar tax cut for the very wealthy.  I was there. I voted against them, I said “No, we can’t afford that,” and now all of a sudden these guys are so seized with the concern about the debt that they created.

RADDATZ:  Congressman Ryan?

RYAN:  Let’s not forget that they came in with one party control.  When Barack Obama was elected his party controlled everything.  They had the ability to do everything of their choosing and look at where we are right now.  They passed the stimulus. The idea that we could borrow $831 billion and spend it on all of these special interest groups and it would work out just fine, that unemployment would never get to 8%.  It went up above 8% for 43 months.  They said that, right now, if we just pass this stimulus, the economy would grow at 4%.  It’s growing at 1.3.

RADDATZ:  When could you get it below 6%?

RYAN:  That’s what our entire premise of our pro-growth plan for a stronger middle class is all about, getting the economy growing at 4%, creating 12 million jobs over the next four years.  Look at just the $90 billion in stimulus — and the Vice President was in charge of overseeing this.  $90 billion in green pork to campaign contributors and special interest groups. There are just at the Department of Energy over 100 criminal investigations that have been launched on just how stimulus funds are being spent.

BIDEN:  Martha look, his colleagues on the investigative committee’ spent months proves and months and months going into this.

RYAN:  This is the Inspector General.

BIDEN:  Months and months, they found no evidence of cronyism.  And I love my friend here. I’m not allowed to show letters, but go on our website.  He sent me two letters saying by the way, can you send me some stimulus money for companies here in the state of Wisconsin? We sent millions of dollars.  You know why he said…

RADDATZ:  You did ask for stimulus money.

BIDEN:  Sure he did.

RYAN:  On two occasions we advocated for constituents who were applying for grants.  That’s what we do.  We do that for all constituents.

BIDEN:  I love that.  I love that.  This is such a bad program and he writes me a letter, writes the Department of Energy a letter saying the reason we need this stimulus it will create growth and jobs. His words.  And now he’s sitting here looking at me — and by the way, that program, again, investigated what the Congress said was it was a model.  Less than four tenths of one percent waste or fraud in the program. And all this talk about cronyism — they investigated and investigated and did not find one single piece of evidence.  I wish he would just tell — be a little more candid.

RYAN:  Was it a good idea to spend taxpayer dollars on electric cars in Finland or on windmills in China?  Was it a good idea to borrow all this money from countries like China and spend it on all these various different interest groups?

BIDEN:  Let me tell you, it was a good idea.  Moody’s and others said that this was exactly what we needed.  It stopped us from going off the cliff.  It set the conditions to be able to grow again.  We have, in fact, 4% of those green jobs didn’t go under – went under and didn’t work.  It’s a better batting average than investment bankers have. They have about a 40% loss.

RYAN:  Where are the five million green jobs?

RADDATZ:  I want to move on to Medicare and entitlements.  I think we’ve gone over this quite enough.

BIDEN:  By the way, any letter you send me I will entertain.

RYAN: I appreciate that, Joe.

RADDATZ: Let’s talk about Medicare and entitlements. Both Medicare and Social Security are going broke and taking a larger share of the budget in the process.  Will benefits for Americans under these programs have to change for the programs to survive, Mr. Ryan?

RYAN:  Absolutely, Medicare and Social Security are going bankrupt, these are indisputable facts. When I look at these programs, we’ve all had tragedies in our lives, I think about what they’ve done for my own family. My mom and I had my grandmother move in with us who was facing Alzheimer’s. Medicare was there for her, just like it’s there for my mom right now, who is a Florida senior. And when my dad died, my mom and got social security survivor’s benefits, helped me pay for college, helped my mom go back to college in her 50’s where she started a small business because of the new skills she got, she paid all of her taxes on the promise that these programs would be there for her.  We will honor this promise and the best way to do it is reform it for my generation, you see, if you reform these programs for my generation, people 54 and below, you can guarantee they don’t change for people in or near retirement which is precisely what Mitt Romney and I are proposing. Look at what Obamacare does, it takes 716 billion dollars from Medicare to spend on Obamacare, even their own chief of Medicare backs this up, he says you can’t spend the same dollar twice, you can’t claim this that money goes to Medicare and Obamacare, and then they put this new Obamacare board in charge of cutting Medicare each and every year in ways that will lead to denied care for current seniors.  This board is 15 people, the president is supposed to appoint them next year and not one of them even has to have medical training, and Social Security? If we don’t shore up Social Security when we run out of the IOUs, when the program goes bankrupt, a 25% across the board benefit cut kicks in on current seniors in the middle of their retirement. We are going to stop that from happening.  They haven’t put a credible solution on the table. He’ll tell you about vouchers and say all these things to try to scare people.  Here’s what we’re saying.  Give younger people when they become Medicare eligible guaranteed coverage options that can’t be denied, including traditional Medicare, choose your plan and then Medicare subsidized your premiums, not as much for the wealthy people, more coverage for middle class people and total out of pocket coverage for the poor and sick, choice and competition, we would rather have 50 million future seniors determine how their Medicare is delivered to them instead of 15 bureaucrats deciding what, if, where, when, they get it.

BIDEN: I heard that death panel argument from Sarah Palin, I hear this kind of stuff about panels, but let’s talk about Medicare.  What we did is we saved $716 billion and put it back,

applied it to Medicare, we cut the cost of Medicare, we stopped overpaying insurance companies, when doctors and hospitals, the AMA supported what we did, — AARP endorsed what we did.  And it extended the life of Medicare to 2024.  They want to wipe this all out.  It also gave more benefits, any senior out there ask yourself, do you have more benefits today, you do, if you’re near the donut hole, you have $600 more to help your prescription drug costs, you get wellness visits without co-pays, they wipe all of this out and Medicare goes — becomes insolvent in 2016, number one, number two guaranteed benefit, it’s a voucher.  When they first proposed — when the congressman had his first voucher program, the CBO said it would cost $6,400 a year Martha more for every senior, 55 and below when they got there.  He knew that, yet he got it all the guys in Congress and women in the Republican party to vote for it, Governor Romney knowing that said I would sign it.  Who do you believe?  The AMA, me, a guy whose fought his whole life for this or somebody who would actually put in motion a plan that knowingly cuts — added $6,400 a year more to the cost of Medicare?  Now they’ve got a new plan.  Trust me, it’s not going to cost you anymore.  Folks, follow your instincts on this one.  And with regard to Social Security, we will not — we will not privatize it, if we had listened to Romney, Governor Romney, and the Congressman, during the Bush years, imagine where all those seniors would be now if their money had been in the market.  Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad, and they eliminate the guarantee of Medicare.

RYAN:  Here’s the problem. They got caught with their hands in the cookie jar, turning Medicare into a piggy bank for Obamacare.  Their own actuary from the administration came to Congress and said one out of six hospitals and nursing homes are going to go out of business as a result of this.

BIDEN:  That’s not what they said.

RYAN:  7.4 million seniors are projected to lose the current Medicare advantage coverage they have, that’s a $3200 benefit cut.

BIDEN:  That didn’t happen. More people signed up.  More people signed up for Medicare advantage after the change.

RYAN:  What they’re saying, these are from your own actuaries.

BIDEN:  Nobody is being shut down.

RYAN:  Mr. Vice president.

RYAN:  I know you’re under a lot of duress to make up for lost ground, but I think people would be better served if we don’t interrupting each other.

BIDEN:  Well, don’t take all of the all the four minutes then.

RYAN: We’re saying don’t change benefits for 55 and above, they have already organized their retirement around these promises.

MODERATOR:  Let me ask you this — what is your specific plan for seniors who really can’t afford to make up the difference in the value of what you call a premium support plan and others call a voucher?

RYAN:  100% coverage for them.

MODERATOR:  And what costs —

RYAN:  That’s what we’re saying, so, we’re saying income adjust these premium support payments by taking down the subsidies for wealthy people. Look, this is a plan by the way, that $6400 number was misleading then, it’s totally inaccurate now, this is a plan that’s bipartisan, it’s a plan I put together with a prominent democrat senator from Oregon.

RYAN:  There’s not one Democrat who endorses it. Not one Democrat who is on the plan.

RYAN:  Our partner is a Democrat from Oregon.

BIDEN: And he says he no longer supports your plan.

RYAN:  We put it together with the former Clinton budget director.

BIDEN: Who disavows it.

RYAN:  This idea came from the Clinton Commission to save Medicare, chaired by Senator John Breaux, here’s the point Martha.

BIDEN:  Which was rejected.

RYAN:  If we didn’t fix this problem pretty soon, then current seniors get cut.  Here’s the problem, 10,000 people are retiring in every single day in America today and they will for 20 years, that’s not a political thing, that’s a math thing.

BIDEN: Martha, if we just did one thing, if they just allow Medicare to bargain for the cost of drugs like Medicaid can, that would save $156 billion right off the bat.

RYAN:  And it would deny seniors choices.

BIDEN:  Seniors are not denied.

RYAN:  Absolutely.

BIDEN:  They are not denied, look, folks, all you seniors out there, have you been denied choices?  Have you lost Medicare advantage? More if you had signed up?

RYAN:  Because it’s working well right now.

BIDEN:  Because we’ve changed the law.

MODERATOR:  If it could help solve the problem, why not very slowly raise the Medicare eligibility age by 2 years as congressman Ryan suggests.

BIDEN:  Look, I was there when we did that with Social Security in 1983, I was one of eight people sitting in the room that included tip O’Neal negotiating with president Reagan we all got together and everybody said as long as everybody’s in the deal, everybody’s in the tell deal and everybody is making some sacrifice we can find a way.  We made the system solvent to 2033.  We will not, though, be part of any voucher plan eliminating — the voucher says mom, we are — when you’re 65, go out there, shop for the best insurance you can get, you’re out of Medicare, you can buy back in if you want with this voucher which will not keep pace, will not keep pace with healthcare costs because if it did keep pace with healthcare costs, there would be no savings, that’s why they go the voucher.  They — we will be no part of a voucher program or the privatization of social security.

RYAN:  A voucher is you go to your mailbox get a check and buy something, nobody’s proposing that.  Barack Obama four years ago running for president said if you don’t have any fresh ideas, use stale tactics to scare voters, if you don’t have a good record to run on, paint your opponent as  someone people should run from.

MODERATOR:  You were one of the few law makers to stand with President Bush when he was seeking to partially privatize social security.

RYAN:  For younger people what we said then, and what I’ve always agreed is let younger Americans have a voluntary choice of making their money work faster for them within the Social Security system.  That’s not what Mitt Romney is proposing, what we’re saying is no changes for anybody 55 and above.

BIDEN:  What Mitt Romney is proposing.

RYAN:  The kinds of things we’re talking about for younger people like myself, is don’t increase the benefits for wealthy people as fast as everybody else, slowly raise the retirement age over time, it wouldn’t get to the age of 70 until 2103 according to the actuaries. Now, here’s the issue.

BIDEN:  Quickly, the bottom line here is that all the studies show that if we went with Social Security proposal made by Mitt Romney, if you’re in your 40s now, you will pay  $2600 a year — you get $2600 a year less than Social Security, if you’re in your 20s now, you get $4700 a year less, the idea of changing and change being in this case to cut the benefits for people without taking other action, you can do to make it work is absolutely the wrong way.  These — look, these guys haven’t been big on Medicare from the beginning, their parties not been big on Medicare from the beginning and they’ve always been about Social Security as little as you can do.  Look, folks, use your common sense, who do you trust on this, a man who introduced a bill that would raise it $6400 a year knowing it and passing it and Romney saying you sign it or me and the President?

RYAN:  That statistic was completely misleading but more importantly.

BIDEN:  Those are facts right?

RYAN:  This is what politicians do when they don’t have a record to run on, try to scare people from voting for you.  If you don’t get ahead of this problem, it’s going to tackle us.

BIDEN:  Medicare beneficiaries have more benefits now.

MODERATOR:  We’re going to move on to a very simple question.

RYAN:  Medicare and Social Security did so much for my own family we are not going to jeopardize this program, but we have to save it for the next generation so it doesn’t go bankrupt.

BIDEN:  You are jeopardizing the program, you’re changing the program from a guaranteed benefit to a premium support, whatever you call it, the bottom line is people are going to have to pay more money out of their pocket and the families I know and the families I come from they don’t have the money to pay more out their pocket.

RYAN:  That’s why we’re saying more for lower income people and less for higher income people.

RADDATZ: I would like to move on to a very simple question for both of you and something tells me I won’t get a very simple answer.  But let me ask you this.

BIDEN: I gave you a simple answer. He’s raising the cost of Medicare.

RADDATZ:  Okay.  On to taxes, if your ticket is elected, who will pay more in taxes, who will pay less. And we’re starting with Vice President Biden for two minutes.

BIDEN:  The middle class will pay less and people making a million dollars or more will begin to contribute slightly more.  Let me give you one concrete example.  The continuation of the Bush tax cuts, we are arguing that the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy should be allowed to expire. Of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, $800 million–billion of that goes to people making a minimum of a million dollars, we see no justification these economic times for those–and they’re patriotic Americans, they’re not asking for this continued tax cut, they’re not suggesting it but my friends are insisting on it. 120,000 families by continuing that tax cut will get an additional $500 billion in tax relief in the next ten years and their income is an average of $8 million.  We want to extend permanently the middle class tax cut for– permanently from the Bush middle class tax cut.  These guys won’t allow us to–you know what they’re saying? We say let’s have a vote, let’s have a vote on the middle class tax cut and let’s have a vote on the upper tax cut, let’s go ahead and vote on it. They’re saying no, they’re holding hostage the middle class tax cut to the super wealthy and on top of that they’ve got another tax cut coming that’s $5 trillion that all the studies point out will in fact give another $250 million — or yeah, $250,000 a year to those 120,000 families and raise taxes for people who are middle income with a child by $2,000 a year. This is unconscionable; there is no need for this.  The middle class got knocked on their heels, the great recession crushed them, they need some help now. The last people who need help are 120,000  families for another, another 500 billion-dollar tax cut over the next ten years.

MODERATOR:  Congressman.

RYAN:  Our entire premise of these tax reform plans are to grow the economy and cite jobs, it’s estimated to create 7 million jobs.  Now, we think that government taking 28% of a family and business’ income is enough, President Obama thinks that the government ought to be able to take as much as 44.8% of a small business’ income. Look, if you taxed every person in successful small business making over $250,000 at 100%, it would only run the government for 98 days, if everybody who paid income taxes last year including successful small businesses doubled the their incomes taxes this year, we’d still have a 300 billion-dollar deficit, you see, there aren’t enough rich people and small businesses to tax to pay for all their spending.  And so the next time you hear them say don’t worry about it, we’ll get a few wealthy people pay that are fair share, watch out middle class, the tax bill’s coming to you.  That’s why we’re saying we need fundamental tax reform.  Let’s take a look at it this way. 8 out of 10 business, they file their taxes as individuals not as corporations.  And where I come from, overseas which is Lake Superior, the Canadians they drop their tax rates to 15%, the average tax rate on businesses in the industrialized world is 25% and the president wants the top effective tax rate on successful small businesses to go above 40%. Two-thirds of your jobs come from small businesses, this is one tax would actually tax about 53%’ small business income, it’s expected to cost us 710,000 jobs and you know what?  It doesn’t even pay for 10% of their proposed deficit spending increases.  What we are saying is lower tax rates across the board and close loop heels primarily to the higher income people.  We have three bottom lines, don’t raise the deficit, don’t raise taxes on he middle class and don’t lower the share of income that is borne by the high income earner, he’ll keep saying this 5 trillion-dollar plan I suppose it’s been discredited by six other studies and even their own deputy campaign manager acknowledged that’ it wasn’t correct.

RADDATZ:  Let’s talk about this 20%.  You have refused again and again, to offer specifics on how you pay for that 20% across the board tax cut.  Do you actually have the specifics or are you still working on it and that’s why you won’t tell voters?

RYAN:  Different than this administration, we actually want to have big bipartisan agreements, you see, I understand…

RADDATZ:  Do you have the specifics, do you know exactly what you’re doing?

RYAN:  Look at what Ronald Reagan and Tip O’Neal did, they worked together out of a framework, to lower tax rates and broaden the base, and they worked together to fix that what we’re saying is here’s our framework, lower tax rates 20%, we raise about $1.2 trillion through income taxes, we forego about 1.1 trillion in loopholes and deductions, and so what we’re saying is deny those loopholes and deductions to higher income taxpayers so that more of their income is taxed which has a broader base of taxation.

BIDEN:  Can I translate.

RADDATZ:  So we can lower tax rights across the board, now here’s why I’m saying this.

BIDEN:  I hope I’m going get time to respond.

RYAN:  We want to work with Congress on how best to achieve this, that means successful —

RADDATZ:  No specifics again.

RYAN:  What we’re saying is lower tax rights 20%, start with the wealthy, work with Congress to do it.

RADDATZ:  And you guarantee this math will add up.

RYAN:  Absolutely. Six studies have guaranteed it, six studies have verified that this math adds up.

BIDEN:  Let me translate.  Let me have a chance to translate.  I was there when Reagan — he gave specifics to what he was going to cut in terms of tax expenditures, number two, 97% of the small businesses in America pay less — make less than $250,000.  Let me tell you who some of those other small businesses are, hedge funds, they make 6 or $800 million a year that’s what they count as small businesses because they’re a pass-through.  Let’s look at how sincere they are.  Governor Romney on 60 Minutes I guess it was about 10 days ago was asked, Governor, you pay 14% on $20 million, someone making $50,000 pays more than that, do you think that’s fair?  He said oh, yes, that’s fair.  That’s fair.  And they’re going to talk about — you think these guys are going to go out there and cut those loopholes, the biggest one they take advantage is the carried interest loophole and capital gains loophole. They exempt that. Now they’re not enough… the reason why American Enterprise Institute study, the tax policy center study, the reason they say is they are going to tax the middle class, the only way you can find 5 trillion-dollars in loopholes is cut the mortgage deduction for middle class people, cut the healthcare deduction for middle class people, take away their ability to get a tax break to send their kids to college, that’s why —

RADDATZ:  Is he wrong about that?

RYAN:  He’s wrong about that.

BIDEN:  How’s that.

RYAN:  You can cut tax rates by 20% and still preserve these important preferences for middle class taxpayers.

BIDEN:  Not mathematically possible.

RYAN:  It is mathematically possible it’s been done before, that’s what we’re proposing.

BIDEN:  It has never been done before.

RYAN:  It’s been done a couple of times.

BIDEN: It has never been done before.

RYAN:  Jack generally cut taxes.

BIDEN:  Oh, now you’re Jack Kennedy.

RYAN:  Republicans and Democrats have worked together on this.

BIDEN:  That’s right.

RYAN:  I understand you guys aren’t used to doing bypass Tampa deals.

BIDEN:  He said here are the things we’re going to cut, here’s’ what he said.

RYAN:  That’s exactly how you get things done, you work Congress. Let me say it this way:

BIDEN:  That’s coming from a Republican Congress working bipartisanly? 7% rating? Come on.

RYAN:  Mitt Romney was the Governor of Massachusetts where 87% of the legislators he served with were Democrats, he didn’t demonize them, he met with those party leaders every week and reached across the aisle, didn’t compromise principles, and he saw common ground…

BIDEN:  And you saw what happened.

RYAN:  And he balanced the budget.

BIDEN:  If he did such a great job, why isn’t he even contesting Massachusetts?  That’s kind of curious, isn’t it?

RADDATZ:  What would you suggest beyond raising taxes on the wealthy that would substantially reduce the long-term deficit?

BIDEN:  Just let those tax cuts expire like they’re supposed to on those millionaires, we can’t afford $800 billion going to people making a minimum of $1 million, and they do not need it Martha. Those 120,000 families make $8 million a year.  Middle class people need the help.  Why does my friend cut out the tuition tax credit for them?  Why does he go after childcare?  Why do they do that?

RADDATZ:  Can you declare anything off limits.

RYAN:  Yeah, we’re saying close loopholes for higher income people.

BIDEN:  Can you guarantee that no one making less than $100,000 will have a mortgage deduction impacted?

RYAN:  This tax.

BIDEN:  Guaranteed.

RYAN:  This tax is a million small businesses, it’s just some movie star or hedge fund guy.

BIDEN:  97% of the small businesses make less than $250,000 a year would not be affected one bit.

RYAN:  This taxes a million people, a million small businesses.

RADDATZ:  Does if tax 97% of American small businesses?

RYAN:  It taxes small businesses who are the greatest job creators.

RADDATZ:  And you’re going to increase the defense budget?  And you’re going to increase the defense budget.

RYAN:  We’re not going to cut the defense.

RADDATZ: Two trillion-dollars we’re talking about preventing?

RADDATZ:  So no massive defense increases?

RYAN:  We’re saying you want to get into defense now?

RADDATZ:  Yes, I do.  I do because that’s another math question.

RYAN:  All right.

RADDATZ:  How do you do that?

RYAN:  They proposed a $478 billion cut to defense, to begin with, now we have another $5,700,000,000,000 cut that’s lurking on the horizon, they insisted that being involved in the debt negotiations…

RADDATZ:  Let’s put the automatic defense cuts aside, okay let’s put those aside no wants that but I want to know how you do the math and have this increase in defense spending.

RYAN:  You don’t cut defense by a trillion dollars, that’s what we’re talking about,.

RADDATZ:  What national security issues justify an increase?

RYAN:  We’re going to cut 80,000 soldiers, 20,000 marines, 120 cargo planes, we’re going to push the joint fighters down..

RADDATZ:  One more and one more and one more —

RYAN:  If these cuts go through our Navy will be the smallest it has been since before World War I.  This invite weakness.  Look, does we believe in peace through strength you bet we do and that means you don’t impose these devastating cuts on our military.  So we’re saying don’t cut the military by a trillion dollars.  Not increase it by a trillion dollars, don’t cut it by a trillion dollars.

RADDATZ:  Quickly, Vice President Biden, I want to move on.

BIDEN:  Look we don’t cut it and I might add, the so-called sequestered automatic cut, that was part of a debt deal they asked for and let me tell you what my friend said at a press conference announcing his support of the deal, he said we’ve and looking for this moment for a long time.

RYAN:  Can I tell you what that meant?  We’ve been looking for bipartisanship for a long time.

BIDEN: The bipartisanship is what he voted for…  he voted for the automatic cuttings and guess they didn’t act and beyond that they asked for another — look, the military says we need a smaller leaner Army, we need more special forces, we need — we don’t need more M1 tanks, we need more UAVs.

RADDATZ:  Some of the military.

BIDEN:  Not some of the military, that was the decision of the joint chief chiefs of staff recommended to us and agreed to by the President.

RADDATZ:  Who answered to the… leader.

BIDEN:  They made the recommendation first.

RADDATZ:  Okay.  Let’s move on to Afghanistan.

RYAN:  Can I get into that for a second.

MODERATOR:  I would like to move on to Afghanistan and that’s one of the biggest expenditures that country has made in dollars and more importantly in lives.  We just passed the sad milestone of losing 2,000 U.S. troops there in this war.  More than 50 of them were killed this year by the very Afghan forces we are trying to help.  Now we’ve reached the recruiting goal for Afghan forces, we’ve degraded Al Qaeda.  So tell me, why not leave now?  What more can we real accomplish?  Is it worth more American lives?

RYAN:  We don’t want to lose the gains we’ve gotten, we want to make sure that the Taliban does not come back in and give Al Qaeda a safe haven, we agree with the administration on their 2014 transition.  Look, when I think about Afghanistan, I think about the incredible job that our troops have done, you’ve been there more than the two of us’ combined, first time I was there in 2002 it was amazing to me what they were facing.  Now, when I went to the Kandahar before the surge, I sat down with a young private from the 22nd  who would tell me what he did every day and I was in awe and to see what they had in front of them and then go back there in December and go  throughout with the Marines to see what they had accomplished it’s nothing short of amazing. What we don’t want to do is lose the gains we’ve gotten.  Now we’ve disagreed from time to time on a few issues, we would have more likely taken into account the recommendations from our commanders, general Patraeus on troop levels throughout this year’s fighting season we’ve been skeptical about negotiations with the Taliban especially while they’re shooting with us but we want to see the 2014 transition be successful and that means we want to make sure our commanders have what they need to make sure that are it is successful so that they does not once again become a launching about for terrorists.

BIDEN:  Martha, let’s keep our eye on the balance ball, the reason I’ve been out of Afghanistan and Iraq 20 times, I’ve been up in the Kunar valley, throughout that whole country mostly in a helicopter and sometimes in a vehicle. The fact is we went there for one reason.  To get those people who killed Americans. Al Qaeda, we decimated Al Qaeda central, we have eliminated Osama bin Laden, that was our purpose, and in fact, in the meantime what we said we would do, we would help train the Afghan military, it’s their responsibility to take over their own security, that’s why with 49 of our allies, in Afghanistan, we’ve agreed on a gradual drawdown so we’re out of there by the year 20 — in the year 2014.  My friend and the governor say it’s based on conditions, which means it depends. It does not depend for us.  It is the responsibility of the Afghans to take care of their own security.  We have trained over 315,000 mostly without incident; there have been more than two dozen cases of green on blue where Americans have been killed.  If we do not — if the measures the military has taken do not take hold, we will not go on joint patrols, we will not train them in the field, we’ll only train in the Army bases that exist there.  But we are leaving, we are leaving in 2014. Period. And in the process we’re going to be saving over the next ten years another $800 billion, we’ve been in this war for over a decade.  The primary objective is almost completed, now all we’re doing is putting the Kabul government in a position to be able to maintain their own security. It’s their responsibility, not America’s.

RYAN:  We don’t want to lose the gains we’ve gotten, we want to make sure that the Taliban does not come back in and give Al Qaeda a safe haven, we agree with the administration on their 2014 and significance.  Look, when I think about Afghanistan, I think about the incredible job that our troops have done, you’ve been there more than the two of us’ combined, first time I was there in 2002 it was amazing to me what they were facing.  Now, when I went to the Kandahar before the surge, I sat down with a young private who would tell me what he did every day and I was in awe and to see what they had in front of them and then go back there in December and go throughout with the Marines to see what they had accomplished it’s nothing short of amazing. What we don’t want to do is lose the gains we’ve gotten. Now we’ve disagreed from time to time on a few issues, we would have more likely taken into account the recommendations from our commanders, general Patraeus on trooper levels throughout this year’s fighting season we’ve been skeptical about negotiations with the Taliban especially while they’re shooting with us but we want to see the 2014 transition be successful and that means we want to make sure our commanders have what they need to make sure that are it is successful so that they does not once again become a launchinged about for terrorists.

BIDEN:  Martha, let’s keep our eye on the balance ball, the reason I’ve been out of Afghanistan and Iraq 20 times, I’ve been up in the Konar valley and throughout most of that country mostly in a helicopter and sometimes in a vehicle.  The fact is we’ went there for one reason.  To get those people who killed Americans Al Qaeda, we decimated Al Qaeda central, we have eliminated Osama bin Laden, that was our purpose, and in fact, in the meantime what I we said we would do, we’ll would help train the Afghan military, it’s their responsibility to take over their own security, that’s why with 49 of our allies, in Afghanistan, we’ve agreed on a gradual drawdown so we’re out of there by the year 20 — in the year 2014.  My friend and the governor say it’s based on conditions, which means it depends. It does not depend for us.  It is the responsibility of the Afghans to take care of their own security.  We have trained over 315,000 mostly without incident, there have been more than two dozen cases of green on blue where Americans have been killed.  If we do not — if the measures the military has taken do not take hold, we will not go on joint patrols, we will not train them in the field, we’ll only train in the Army bases that exist there.  But we are leaving, we are leaving in 14.  Period. And in the — leaving in 2014 period and in the process we’re going to be saving over the next ten years another $800 billion, we’ve been in this war for over a decade.  The primary objective is almost completed, now all we’re doing is putting the Kabul government in a position to be able to maintain their own security it’s their responsibility, not America’s.

RADDATZ:  What conditions could justify staying congressman Ryan.

RYAN:  We don’t want to stay, we want — look, one of my best friends in Janesville, a reservist is at an operating base in east Afghanistan, our wives are best friend, I want him and all of our troops to come home as soon and safely as possible.  We want to make sure the 2014’s successful, that’s why we want to make sure that we give our commanders what they say they need to make it successful.  We don’t want to extend beyond 2014 that’s the point we’re making. You know, if it was just this, I would feel like we would be able to call this a success.  But it’s not.  What we are witnessing as we turn on our television screens these days is the absolute unraveling of the Obama foreign policy, problems are growing at home — problems are growing abroad but jobs aren’t growing here at home.

RADDATZ:  Let me go back to this, he says we’re absolutely leaving in 2014.  You’re saying that’s not an absolute but you won’t talk about what conditions would justify.

RYAN:  Do you know why we say that because we don’t want to broadcast to our enemies: put a date on your calendar, wait us out and then come back, we want to make sure.

RADDATZ:  But you agree with the time line.

RYAN:  We do agree with the time line and the transition, but what way — what any administration will do in 2013 is assess the situation to see how best to complete this time line.

BIDEN:  We will leave in 2014.

RYAN:  What we do not want to do is give our allies reason to trust us less and our enemies more — we don’t want to embolden our enemies to hold and wait out for us.

RADDATZ:  Martha that’s a bizarre statement.

RYAN:  That’s what I want —

PARTICIPANT:  49 of our ally, hear me, 49 of our allies, signed on to this position.

RYAN:  And we’re reading that they want (inaudible).

BIDEN:  49, 49 of our allies said out in 2014.  It’s the responsibility of the Afghans. We have other responsibilities.

RADDATZ:  But we have soldiers and Marines, we have Afghan forces murdering our forces over there, the Taliban is — do you think taking advantage of this time line?

BIDEN:  Look the Taliban — what we’ve found out and you saw it in Iraq, Martha, unless you set a time line, Baghdad in the case of Iraq and Kabul in the case of Afghanistan will not step up, they’re happy to let us continue to do the job, international securities force to do the job. The only way they step up is say fellows, we’re leaving.  We’ve trained you. Step up.  Step up.

RADDATZ:  Let me go back.

BIDEN:  That’s the only way it works.

RADDATZ:  Let me go back to the surge troops we put in there and you brought this up, congressman Ryan, I have talked to a lot of troops, I’ve talked senior officer whose were concerned that the surge troops were pulled out during the fighting season and some of them saw that as a political move.  So can you tell me, Vice President, Biden, what was the military reason for bringing those surge troops home before the fighting season ended.

BIDEN:  By the way, when the President announced the surge, you’ll remember, Martha, he said the surge will be out by the end of the summer.  The military said the surge will be out. Nothing political about this.  Before the surge occurred, so you be a little straight with me here, too, before the surge occurred, we said they’ll be out by the end of the summer that’s what the military said, the reason for that is —

RADDATZ:  Military follows orders, I mean, trust me, there are people who were concerned about pulling out. On the fighting season.

BIDEN: There are people who are concerned but not the joint chiefs that was their recommendation in the oval officer to the president of the United States of America, I sat there, I’m sure you will find someone who disagrees with the Pentagon, I’m positive you will mind within the military but that’s not the case here.  And secondly, the reason why the military said that is you cannot wait and have a cliff, it takes, you know, months and month and months to draw down forces.

RYAN:  Let me

BIDEN:  Congress cannot wait.

RYAN: Let me try to illustrate the issue.  We’ve all met with General Alan and General Scaparrotti and Afghanistan to talk about fighting seasons, here’s the way it works, the mountain pass is filling with snow, the Taliban and the terrorists and the Ketashura come over from Pakistan to find our men and women, when it fills up with snow they can’t do it that’s what we call fighting seasons, in the warm months, fighting gets really high, in the winter it goes down and so when Admiral Mullen and General Petraeus came to Congress and said if you pull these people out before the fighting season has end it puts people more at risk that’s the problem.  Yes, we drew 22,000 troops down last month but the remaining troops that are there, who still have the same mission to prosecute, counter-insurgency are doing it with fewer people, that makes them less safe.  We’re sending fewer people out in all of these hot spots to do the same job that they were supposed to do a month ago., but we took 22,000 people out to do it.

BIDEN:  Because we turned it over to the — we turned over to the Afghan troops, we trained. No one got pulled out that didn’t get filled in by trained Afgan personal and he’s conflating two issues, the fighting season that Patraeus was talking about and Admiral Mullen was the fighting season this spring, that’s what he’s talking about, we did not pull them out.

RYAN:  The calendar works the same every year.

BIDEN:  It does work the same every year.  And than and we’re not staying there.

RYAN:  Winter spring, summer or fall, it’s warm or it’s not, they’re still fighting us and coming over the passes, they’re still coming in to Zobel, Kunar, to all of these areas, but we are sending fewer people to the front to fight them, and that’s not safe

BIDEN:  That’s right, because that’s the Afghan responsibility. We’ve trained them.

RYAN:  Not in the east.

RADDATZ:  Let’s move to another war.

BIDEN:  Not in the east.

RYAN:  RC east.

BIDEN:  RC east, the most dangerous place in the world.

RYAN:  That’s why we don’t want to spend fewer people to do the job.

BIDEN:  That’s why we should send Americans in to do the job instead of the– You would rather Americans be going in and doing the job instead of the trained–

RYAN:  We are already sending Americans to do the job, but fewer of them.

BIDEN:  That’s right, we’re’ sending in more Afghans to do the  job, Afghans to do the job.

RADDATZ:  Let’s move to another war, the civil war in Syria, where there are estimates that more than 25,000 or 30,000 people have now been killed, in march of last year, President Obama explained the military action taken in Libya by saying it was in the national interest to go in and prevent further massacres from occurring there why doesn’t the same logic apply in Syria?

BIDEN:  It’s a different country.  It’s a different country, it is five times as large geographically, it has one-fifth the population that is Libya, one-fifth the population, five times larger geographically, it’s in a part of the world where they’re not going to see whatever would come from that war seep into a regional war, you are in a country that is heavily populated, in the midst of the most dangerous area in the world and in fact — if fact it blows up and the wrong people gain control it’s going to have impact on the entire region causing potentially regional wars.  We are working hand and glove with the Turks, Jordanians, the Saudis and with all the people in the region attempting to identify the people who deserve the help so that when Assad goes and he will go, there will be a legitimate government that falls on, not an Al Qaeda sponsored government that follows on.  And all this loose talk of my friend Governor Romney and the congressman about how we could do so much more in there, what more would they do other than put American boats to the ground.  The next thing America needs is to get into another ground war in the Middle East, requiring tens of thousands if not well over 100,000 American forces.  That — they are the facts.  Now, every time the governor’s asked about this, he doesn’t say anything — he goes up with a whole lot of verbiage but when he gets pressed he says no, he would not do anything different than we are doing now.  Are they proposing putting American troops on the ground?  Putting American aircraft in the airspace?  Is that what they’re proposing, if they do they should speak up and say so.  But that’s not what they’re saying.  We are doing it exactly like we need to do to identify those forces who in fact will provide for a stable government and not cause a regional Sunni- Shia when Bashar Assad falls.

RYAN:  Nobody is proposing to send troops Syria, American troops.  Now, let me say it this way.  How would we do things differently, we wouldn’t refer to Bashar al-Assad as a reformer when he’s killing his own civilians, with his Russian- provided weapons. We wouldn’t be outsourcing our foreign policy to the United Nations Vladimir Putin veto power over our efforts to try and deal with this issue, he’s vetoed three of them. Hillary Clinton went to Russia, to try and convince them not to do so, they thwarted her effort, she said they were on the wrong side of history, she was right about that. This is just one more example of how the Russia reset is not working.  And so where are we? After international pressure mounted, then President Obama said Bashar al-Assad should go it’s been over a year, the man has slaughtered tens of thousands of his own people and more foreign fighters are spilling into this country, so the longer this is going on, the more people — groups like Al Qaeda are going in, we could have more easily identified the free Syrian Army, the freedom fighters, working with our allies, the Turks, the Qataris, the Saudis, had we had a better plan in place to begin with, working through our allies but no, we waited for Kofi Anon to try and come up with an agreement at the UN. That bought Bashar al Assad time, we gave Russia a veto power over our efforts at the UN, and meanwhile, about 30,000 Syrians are dead.

BIDEN: What would my friend do differently?  If you notice he never answers the question.

RYAN: No, we would not be going through the UN in all of these things.

BIDEN: You don’t go through the UN.  We are in the process now and have been for months in making sure that help, humanitarian aid, as well as other aid and training is getting to those forces that we believe, the Turks believe, the Jordanians believe, the Saudis believe, are the free forces inside of Syria, that is underway. Our allies were all on the same page, NATO as well as our Arab allies in terms of trying to get a settlement, that was their idea, we’re the ones that said enough.  With regard to the reset not working, the fact of the matter is that Russia that has a different interest in Syria than we do and that’s not in our interest.

RADDATZ:  What happens in Assad does not fall, Congressman Ryan, what happens to the region? What happens if he hangs on?

RYAN: Then Iran keeps their greatest ally in the region, he’s a sponsor of terrorism, he’ll probably continue slaughtering his people we and the world community will lose or credibility on this.  Look, he mentioned the reset.

RADDATZ:  What would Romney I’ve Ryan do about that credibility?

RYAN:  We agree with the same red line actually they do on chemical weapons, but not putting American troops in other than to secure those chemical weapons, they’re right about that. But what we should have earlier is work with those freedom fighters, those dissidents in Syria, we should not have called Bashar al-Assad a reformer and we should not have —

RADDATZ:  What’s your criteria —

RYAN:  We should not have waited for Russia to give us the green light at the UN to do something about it.  They’re still arming the man. Iran is flying flights over Iraq.

BIDEN:  And the opposition is being armed.

RYAN:  To help Bashar al-Assad and by the way, if we had the status of forces agreement that the Vice President said that he would bet his vice presidency on in Iraq, we probably would have been able to prevent that but he failed to achieve that as well.

RADDATZ:  Let me ask you again what’s your criteria for intervention.

RYAN:  In Syria?

RADDATZ:  Worldwide.

RYAN:  What is in the national interest of the American people? It’s got to be in the strategic national interest of our country.

RADDATZ:  No humanitarian.

RYAN:  Each situation will come up with its own set of circumstances but putting American troops on the ground… that’s got to be within the national security interests of the American people.

RADDATZ:  I want to — we’re almost out of time here.

RYAN:  Things like embargoes and sanctions and over flights, those are things that don’t put American troops on the ground but if you are talking about putting American troops on the ground, then only in our national security interests.

MODERATOR:  I want to move and I want to be return home for these last few questions.  This debate is indeed historic; we have two Catholic candidates first time a stage such as this.  And I would like to ask you both to tell me what role your religion has played in your own personal views on abortion.  Please talk about how you came to that decision, talk about how your religion played a part in that, and please, this is such an emotional issue for so many people in this country, please talk personally about this, if you could.

RYAN:  I don’t see how a person can separate their public life from their private life or from their faith.  Our faith informs us in everything we do.  My faith informs me about how to take care of the vulnerable, about how to make sure that people have a chance in life.  Now, you want to ask basically why I’m pro-life it’s not simply because of my Catholic faith, that’s a factor, of course, but it’s also because of reason and science.  You know, I think about ten and a half years ago, my wife Janna and I went to Mercy hospital in Janesville where I was born for our 7 week ultrasound for our first born child, and we saw that heartbeat, our little baby was in the shape of a bean, and to this day, we have nicknamed our first born child Liza bean.  Now, I believe that life begins at conception.  That’s why those are the reasons why I’m pro-life. Now I understand this is a difficult issue.  And I respect people who don’t agree with me on this.  But the policy of a Romney administration will be to oppose abortion with the exceptions for rape, incest and life of the mother.  What troubles me more is how this administration has handled all of these issues.  Look at what they’re doing through ObamaCare with respect to assaulting the religious liberties of this country. They’re infringing upon our first freedom, the freedom of religion, by infringing on Catholic charities, Catholic churches, Catholic hospitals, our church should not have to sue our federal government to maintain their religious liberties and with respect to abortion, the democratic party used to say they wanted it to be safe, legal and rare, now they support it without restrictions and with taxpayer funding, taxpayer founding and ObamaCare, taxpayer funding with foreign aid, the vice president himself went to China and said I sympathize without a  second guess their one child policy of forced abortions and sterilizations, that to me is pretty extreme.

RADDATZ:  Vice President Biden.

BIDEN:  My religion defines who I am and I’ve been a practicing Catholic my whole life, and it has particularly informed my social doctrine. Catholic social doctrine talks about taking care of those who can’t take care of themselves.  People who need help. With regard to abortion, I accept my church’s position on abortion as a what we call a defeate doctorate. Life begins at conception, that’s the church’s judgment, I accept it in my personal life but I refuse to impose it on equally devout Christians and Muslims and Jews, I just refuse to impose that on others unlike my friend here, the Congressman. I do not believe that we have a right to tell other people that – women that they can’t control their body.  It’s a decision between them and their doctor in my view and the Supreme Court. I’m not going to interfere with that. With regard to the assault on the Catholic church, let me make it absolutely clear, no religious institution Catholic or otherwise, including Catholic social services, Georgetown Hospital, Mercy Hospital, any hospital, none has either to either refer for contraception, none has to pay for contraception, none has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy they provide, that is a fact. Now, with regard to the way in which we differ, my friend says that he accepts Governor Romney’s position now because in the past, he has argued that there is rape and forcible rape, he’s argued that in the case of rape or incest, it was still — it would be a crime to engage in having an abortion.  I just fundamentally disagree with my friend.

MODERATOR:  Congressman Ryan.

RYAN:  All I’m saying is if you believe that life beginnings at conception, that therefore doesn’t change the definition of life. That’s a principle. The policy of a Romney administration is to oppose abortion with the exceptions for rape, incest and life of the mother. Now, I’ve got to take issue with the Catholic Church and religious liberty.

BIDEN:  You have on the issue of Catholic social doctrine, you’ve taken issue.

RYAN:  If they agree with you, then why would they keep suing you? It’s a distinction without a difference.

MODERATOR:  I want to go back to the abortion question here.  If the Romney Ryan ticket is elected, should those who believe that abortion should remain legal be worried?

RYAN:  We don’t think that unelected judges should make this decision that people, through their elected representatives, in reaching a consensus in society through the democratic process, should make this determination.

BIDEN: The court, the next president will get one or two Supreme Court nominees; that’s how close Roe v. Wade is. Just ask yourself. With the Robert Bork being the advisor for, for Mr. Romney, who do you think he’s likely to appoint?  Do you think he’s likely to appoint someone like Scalia or someone else on the court far right that would outlaw abortion? I suspect that would happen.  I guarantee you that will not happen.  We’ve picked two people, we pick people who are open minded, they’ve been good justices, so keep an eye on the Supreme Court.

RYAN:  Was there a litmus test on them?

BIDEN: There was no litmus test. We picked people who had an open mind, did not come with an agenda.

MODERATOR:  I’m going to move on to this closing question because we are running out of time. Certainly known, you’ve said it here tonight, that the two of you respect our troops enormously. Your son has served and perhaps someday your children will serve as well.  I recently spoke to a highly decorated soldier who said that this presidential campaign has left him dismayed.  He told me, quote, the ads ARE so negative and they are all tearing down each other rather than building up the country.  What would you say to that American hero about this campaign?  And at the end of the day, are you ever embarrassed by the tone?  Vice President Biden.

BIDEN:  I would say to him the same thing I say to my son who did serve a year in Iraq, that we only have one truly sacred obligation as a government, and that’s to equip those we send into harm’s way and care for those who come home. That’s the only sacred obligation we have.  Everything else falls behind that.  I would also tell him that the fact that he, this decorated soldier you talked about fought for his country, than the others should be honored.  He should not be thrown into a category of the 47% who don’t pay their taxes while he was out there fighting and not having to pay taxes is somehow not taking responsibility.  I would also tell him that there are things that have occurred in this campaign and occur in every campaign that I’m sure both of us regret, anyone having said, particularly in these special new groups that can go out there, raise all the money they want, not have to identify themselves and say the scurrilous things about the over candidate it’s an abomination.  But the bottom line here is that I’d ask the hero you reference, I would ask them to take a look at whether or not Governor Romney or President Obama has the conviction to help lift up the middle class, restore them to where they were before this great recession hit and they got wiped out or whether or not he’s going to continue to focus on taking care of only the very wealthy not asking them to pay any part of the deal to bring back the middle class the economy of this country.  I would ask him to take a look at whether the president of the United States has acted wisely in the use of force and whether or not the slip shot comments being made by Governor Romney serve our interests very well.  But there are things that have been said in campaigns that I find not very appealing.

RYAN:  First of all, I would thank him for doing services to our country, second of all,  we’re not going to impose these devastating cuts on our military which compromise their mission and their safety and then I would say you have a president who ran for president four years ago, promising hope and change who has now turned this campaign into attack, blame and defame, you see if you don’t have a good record it run on, then you paint your opponent as someone to run  from, that was what President Obama said in 2008, that’s what he’s doing right now.  Look at all the string of broken promise, if you like your healthcare plan you can keep it, try telling that the 20 million people who are projected to lose their health insurance if ObamaCare goes through or the 7.4 seniors who are going to lose it or remember when he said this, I guarantee if you make less than $250,000 your taxes won’t go up, of the 21 tax increases in ObamaCare, 12 of them hit the middle class.  Or remember when he said health insurance in premiums would go down $2500 per family per year, they’ve gone up $3,000 and they’re expected to go up another $2400 or remember when he said I promise by the end of my first term I’m cut the deficit in half in four years.  We’ve had four budgets, four trillion dollar deficits, a debt crisis is coming.  We can’t keep spending and borrowing like this, we can’t keep spending money we don’t have.  Leaders run the problems to fix problems.  President Obama has not even put a credible plan on the table in any of any of his four years to deal with this debt crisis.  I’ve passed two budgets to deal with this, Mitt Romney has put ideas on the table, we’ve got to tackle this debt crisis before it tackles us, the president likes to say he has a plan, he gave a speech.  We asked him budget office, can we  see the plan they sent us to this press secretary, he gave us a copy of the speech.  We asked the congressional budget office, tell us what President Obama’s plan is to prevent a debt crisis they said it’s a speech we can’t estimate speech, you see that’s what we get in this administration, speeches.  But we’re not getting leadership.  Mitt Romney is uniquely qualified  to fix these problems, his lifetime of experience, his proven track record of bipartisanship and what do we have from the president, he broke his big promise to bring the people together to solve the country’s biggest problems and we don’t have to settle for this, we can do better for this.

BIDEN:  I hope I will get equal time.

MODERATOR:  You will get just a few minutes here a few seconds really.

BIDEN:  The two budgets of the congressman has introduction have had eviscerated all of the things that the middle class care about, it will knock 19 million people off Medicare, it will kick 200,000 children off of early education, it will eliminate the tax credit people have to be able to send their children to college, it cuts education by $450 billion, it does virtually nothing except continue to increase the tax cuts for the very wealthy. And, you know, we’ve had enough of this.  My — the idea that these so concern about these deficits, I pointed out, he voted to put two war or a credit card.

MODERATOR: We’re going to the closing statements in a minute. You’re going to have your closing statement.

RYAN:  Not raising taxes is not cutting taxes and by the way, our budget we decrease spending by bill 3% a year, as opposed to 4% like they propose, not spending more money as much as they say is not a spending cut.

MODERATOR:  I want to talk to you very briefly before we go to closing statements about your own personal character.  If you were elected, what could you both give to this country as a man, as a human being that no one else could?

RYAN:  Honesty, no one else could?  There are plenty of fine people who could lead this country.  But what you need are people who when they say they’re going to do something, they go do it.  What you need are when people see problems they offer solutions to fix those problems, we’re not getting that.  Look, we can grow this economy faster that’s what our 5 point plan for a stronger middle class is all about, getting 12 million jobs, higher take home pay, getting people out of oppose of poverty into the middle class, that means going with proven pro-growth policies that we know work to get people back to work, putting ideas on the table, working with democrats, that actually works sometimes and then getting things done.

MODERATOR:  Vice president to we got that issue of what you could bring to a man, a human being and I really am going to keep you’ to about 15 seconds here.

BIDEN:  He gets 40 I get 15 but that’s okay.

MODERATOR:  He’ didn’t have 40.

BIDEN:  Let me tell you, my record stands for itself, I never say anything I don’t mean, everybody knows whatever I say I do, and my whole life has been devoted to leveling the playing field for middle class people giving them an even break, treating Main Street and Wall  street the same, holding the same responsibility, look at my record it’s been all about the middle class.  They’re the people who grow this country, we think you grow this country from middle out not from the top down.

MODERATOR:  Okay.  We now turn to the candidates for their closing statements, thank you gentlemen and that coin toss again has Vice President Biden starting with the closing statement.

BIDEN:  Well, let me say at the outset that I want to thank you, Martha for doing this and Centre College. The fact is that we’re in a situation where we inherited a God awful circumstance. People are in real trouble, we acted to move to bring relief to the people who need the most help now and in the process, we — in case you haven’t noticed we have strong disagreements, but you probably detected my frustration with their attitude about the American people. My friend says that 30% of the American people are takers, Romney points out 47% of the people won’t take responsibility, he’s talking about my mother and father, he’s talking about the places I grew up in, my neighbors in Scranton and Claymont he’s talking about the people that built this country.  All their looking for, Martha, all they’re looking for is an even shot, whenever you give them the shot, they’ve done it. They’ve done it.  Whenever you’ve leveled the playing field they’ve been able to move and they want a little bit of a peace of mind and the President and I are not going to rest until that playing field is leveled, they in fact have a clear shot, and they have peace of mind. Until they can turn to their kid and say with a degree of confidence, honey, it’s going to be okay.  It’s going to be okay.  That’s what this is all about.

MODERATOR:  Congressman Ryan.

RYAN:  I want to thank you as well, Martha.  Danville Kentucky, Centre College and I want to thank you, Joe; it’s been an honor to engage unelected this critical debate.  We face a very big choice.  What kind of country are we going to be? What kind of country are we going to give our kids?  President Obama, he had his chance, he made his choices. His economic agenda: more spending, more borrowing, higher taxes, a government takeover of healthcare; it’s not working. It’s failed to create the jobs we need. 23 million Americans are struggling for work today, 15% of Americans are in poverty.  This is not what a real recovery looks like.  You deserve better. Mitt Romney and I want to earn your support.  We’re offering real reforms for a real recovery for every American.  Mitt Romney-his experience, his ideas, his solutions, is uniquely qualified to get this job done.  At a time when we have a jobs crisis in America, wouldn’t it be nice to have a job creator in the White House?  The choice is clear.  A stagnant economy that promotes more government dependency or a dynamic growing economy that promotes opportunity and jobs.  Mitt Romney and I will not duck the tough issues, and we will not blame others for the next four years, we will take responsibility. And we will not try to replace our founding principles, we will reapply our founding principles, the choice is clear and the choice rests with you and we ask you for your vote.  Thank you.

MODERATOR:  And thank you both again, thank you very much. This concludes the vice presidential debate, please tune in next Tuesday for the second presidential debate at the  university of New York, I’m Martha Raddatz, I do hope all of you go to the polls, have a good evening.

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